Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

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Javi M.
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Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por Javi M. » 31 Ene 2009 15:18

Ya no se entrena taijiquan de la misma manera.... :cry:

DISCOVERING A NATIONAL TREASURE

INTERVIEW WITH WU DO-NAN, 102-YEAR-OLD TAI CHI MASTER. Part 1 of a series

by Jou, Tsung Hwa

Each year the Tai Chi Foundation sponsors a Tai Chi tour to China, including
both a two-week stay in mainland China visiting Beijing, Zhenshou, Xian, and
Guanzhow, and trips to Hong Kong and Taipei, Taiwan. In 1985 while in Beijing,
we heard of a remarkable Master of Tai Chi, Master Wu Do-Nan, who is 102 years
old. We did not want to miss this opportunity to talk with a Tai Chi master who
had achieved such longevity. Using my personal contacts in China, we were able
with much difficulty to arrange a meeting with Master Wu through the Beijing
Institute of Physical Education. Master Wu is considered a "national treasure"
and as such is highly protected by 8 guards on the first floor of his apartment
building and more guards on the ninth floor where he and his wife live. The
meeting was arranged, and following in this and the next several issues of Tai
Chi Farm is information learned from Master Wu Do-Nan.



The Story of Master Wu Do-Nan

Master Wu was born January 23, 1884 to a wealthy Mongolian family in the Chin
Dynasty. He vas a very frail child, yellow and gaunt, prone to fits of coughing,
shortness of breath, and epileptic seizures. His family's high position allowed
his father to ask the dynasty ruler to heal his child.

The doctors diagnosed Wu Do-Nan as having been born with three devastating
diseases: a liver infection, tuberculosis, and epilepsy. They took the
challenge, and Wu Do-Nan began to show some improvement. After

three years, however, the doctors reached the limits of medical care, and
informed Wu Do-Nan's parents that only Tai Chi Chuan could now benefit the
child. Master Wu was then introduced to Wu Chien-Chyan (or Wu Jianquan),
founder of the Wu form, a variation of the Yang School of Tai Chi Chuan.


A Note on Wu Chien-Chyan

Wu Chien-Chyan can, be linked directly to Yang Lew-Shan, originator of Yang
Style Tai Chi Chuan. It is said that the famous Yang Lew-Shan taught Tai Chi
Chuan to three of the Royal Guards as well as to his two sons, Yang Yu and Yang
Chian.

Each of the three Royal Guards had high achievement in other martial arts, and
as to his ability, each learned only one aspect of Yangs Tai Chi Chuan:
hardness, softness, and Fa Chin, which is the power to throw people away.
According to legend, these three aspects are related to learning Yang Lew-Shan's
bones, tendons, and skin, respectively.

Yang Lew Shan's two sons, Yang Yu and Yang Chian, both learned all three aspects
of Tai Chi Chuan from their father and both were also teachers. Wu Chien-Yu, the
father of Wu Chien- Chyan, studied with both Yang Lew-Shan directly and Yang Yu,
and Wu Chien- Chyan learned from his father. Wu Chien-Chyan's postures are
described in The Tao of Tai Chi Chuan, p. 49.

The Training of Wu Do-Nan

So Master Wu Do-Nan was able to study with Wu Chien-Chyan, in a direct line from
Yang Lew-Shan, for 8 years beginning at age 9. Through Wu Do-Nan we were able to
learn something of the traditional teaching methods of Wu Chien-Chyan, founder
of the Wu style.

According to Wu Do-Nan, in those days training did not begin with Tai Chi form.
Instead, for the first 2 to 3 years, students worked exclusively on developing
strength and flexibility in the legs, practicing extensive horse stance
movements, stretching exercises and kicks similar to warm-up exercises practiced
by the Wu Shu teams of China or by Western gymnastics teams.

The training was so difficult and demanding under such a task-master as Wu
Chien-Chyan that Wu Do-Nan thought of suicide. He was already weak and sickly,
and this great suffering almost caused him to give up. Only by remembering his
Mongolian heritage and the strength of his race was he able muster the
enthusiasm to work harder to make great progress.

Wu Do-Nan remembers his greatest suffering when he had to stand with his back to
a post, one ankle tied to the post and both arms embracing it from behind. The
other leg was attached to a pulley and lifted to the highest position tolerable,
and he was left in this position for up to an hour. Each day, the leg was pulled
higher until it reached his forehead .and later behind his head. Such rigorous
training today among Tai Chi players is not widely accepted; however, without
good background and hard work to develop flexibility, high achievement will
never be reached. Once the body had become flexible, Master Wu was taught the
form, but this training was no less rigorous than before. Often one posture,
such as Ward Off, was maintained until it was perfected, up to an hour. Only
when one posture was perfected was a new posture learned. To learn an entire
form often required 2 years; there were no "crash courses." Once Master Wu
learned the form, practice involved stopping at each movement or posture to take
six deep breaths. The reader can calculate how long it would take Master Wu to
complete the 268 movement Yang style he had learned, stopping at each movement
for six deep breaths. After completing the form, Master Wu remembers being able
to literally pour sweat from his shoes, even in winter! All his illnesses were
purged in this great sweat, and Wu Do-Nan became rejuvenated.

After accomplishing the form, Wu Do-Nan learned push hands. First, he learned
the single-hand fixed-stance push-hands using the four directions: Ward Off,
Roll Back, Press, and Push. Later, he learned two-handed push hands. The players
would lower their centers of gravity until they looked like two snakes
slithering on the ground.

Next, Wu Do-Nan learned Da Lu for the four corners: Split, Elbow, Shoulder
Strike, and Pull Down. The teacher would stand in the center and pull down the
student, forcing the student to run to the next corner to maintain his balance.
The teacher would balance the student's energy with his own, and would release
the students hands if his energy was too hard, causing him to fly away. Only
when the teacher felt the student had achieved a natural soft movement, like a
wind through the trees or like clouds across the sky, was the student allowed to
proceed to the next step, Relaxed Kung.

To achieve this relaxation, the student would stand for hours relaxing each part
of the body in turn, from the toes to the top of the head. The teacher was very
perceptive and could detect relaxation in any part of the body, only allowing
the student to pass on to another body part after relaxation had been achieved
in the previous part. When the body was totally relaxed, all the joints would
seem to be separated.

Application of each posture was the next step in training. The student learned
how to put power into each posture, beginning with the basic eight postures
(Ward Off, Roll Back., Press, Push, Split, Elbow, Shoulder- Strike, Pull Down),
and later with each posture of the solo form.

Chan Ssu Chin was then developed, enabling the whole body to move as a unit and
bringing the Chin to the fingers. The Chi Kung was practiced to accumulate Chi
in the Tan Tien, and the Chi was then pushed to the hands. Finally, Chi was
circulated to every part of the body.

After 8 years Wu Do-Nan had completed this course of study, and Master Wu
Chien-Chyan decided he had delivered all his knowledge and that Wu Do-Nan should
study with Yang Chao- Hsiung (or Yang Shaohou), the son of Yang Chian.


ImagenImagen

PD: Si, ya se que entrenaba usando qigong (yo no lo hago así)

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--raas--
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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por --raas-- » 31 Ene 2009 16:58

Hola Javi M
¡que interesante!-> en todos los aspectos
Los motivos del inicio de su práctica (¿medicinales :lol: ?), los métodos de entrenamiento...

Lo he leido desde la salida de mi traductor automático chapucero (mi inglés es penoso)
¿tienes el resto de la serie?

Saludos :D

PD Wu Tu Nan siempre me ha parecido que tenía cara de cachondo mental :D

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Javi M.
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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por Javi M. » 31 Ene 2009 22:21

¡que interesante!-> en todos los aspectos
A mi también me lo ha parecido, sobretodo los requisitos para que wu jian quan empezara a enseñarle... :o
Los motivos del inicio de su práctica (¿medicinales :lol: ?),
Y lo que me jode.... :bad-words: :lol:
¿tienes el resto de la serie?
No, lo siento. Si lo encuentro lo colgaré.
PD Wu Tu Nan siempre me ha parecido que tenía cara de cachondo mental
Si, parecía simpatico... :D

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Loup
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Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por Loup » 31 Ene 2009 23:03

Hola, Raas,
PD Wu Tu Nan siempre me ha parecido que tenía cara de cachondo mental :D


Sí, jajaja, siempre he opinado que Akira Toriyama (Dragon Boy, 1983) se inspiró en el Sifu Wu Tu Nan para su personaje Mutenroshi de Dragon Ball (1984-1995).

Imagen

Saludos,

Loup :D

chongwang
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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por chongwang » 31 Ene 2009 23:47

Artículo escribió:According to Wu Do-Nan, in those days training did not begin with Tai Chi form.
Instead, for the first 2 to 3 years, students worked exclusively on developing
strength and flexibility in the legs, practicing extensive horse stance
movements, stretching exercises and kicks similar to warm-up exercises practiced
by the Wu Shu teams
of China
Lo ves Loup, las patadas de "Wu Shu Moderno" también son realizadas por los estilistas internos :lol:

-chong

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Carlos Romero
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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por Carlos Romero » 01 Feb 2009 01:01

Parte de la historia de Wu Tu Nan ya la había leído hace años.

Para el que no sepa inglés o lo haya pasado por alto, recalco ésto: "The training was so difficult and demanding under such a task-master as Wu Chien-Chyan that Wu Do-Nan thought of suicide.". Vamos, que Wu Tu Nan pensó en suicidarse dada la dificultad del entrenamiento y lo "perro" (por decirlo finamente) que era Wu Jianquan.

Creo recordar que un entrenamiento que hacía, si no estoy equivocado, era hacer la forma debajo de una mesa. Y si intentaba salirse, vara al canto!!

Amigos, ese era el entrenamiento tradicional. Aguantar posturas durante una hora, estiramientos criminales... ¿Cuántos de nosotros auguantaríamos algo así? Ninguno.

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Javi M.
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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por Javi M. » 01 Feb 2009 08:16

¿Cuántos de nosotros auguantaríamos algo así? Ninguno.
Vete tu a saber... ¿crees que wu tu nan en nuestra época y situación lo hubiera aguantado?

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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por daniquan » 01 Feb 2009 12:35

Hola,
Creo recordar que un entrenamiento que hacía, si no estoy equivocado, era hacer la forma debajo de una mesa. Y si intentaba salirse, vara al canto!!

Amigos, ese era el entrenamiento tradicional. Aguantar posturas durante una hora, estiramientos criminales... ¿Cuántos de nosotros auguantaríamos algo así? Ninguno.
Lo de hacer la forma debajo de la mesa, ya viene de antes... Yang Luchan obligaba a sus hijos hacerlo así. Incluso ha habido precedentes en las primeras generaciones de los Yang de intentos de suicidio.

Saludos

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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por --raas-- » 01 Feb 2009 19:18

Intentando rememorar el entrenamiento de Wu TuNan ¿? Estaría bien tener constancias, extrapolando, quizás se pueda hacer una aproximación:
Once the body had become flexible, Master Wu was taught the form, but this training was no less rigorous than before. Often one posture, such as Ward Off, was maintained until it was perfected, up to an hour. Only when one posture was perfected was a new posture learned. To learn an entire form often required 2 years; there were no "crash courses." Once Master Wu learned the form, practice involved stopping at each movement or posture to take six deep breaths. The reader can calculate how long it would take Master Wu to complete the 268 movement Yang style he had learned, stopping at each movement for six deep breaths.
Entrenando posturas sueltas durante largo tiempo -> como se sigue haciendo en yiquan
(Póngase la foto de una postura usada en taijiquan, contémplese durante una hora y ya tenemos el video del entrenamiento que realizaba al respecto)

Una vez dominadas empezando luego a entrenar la forma de manera muy lenta es decir que según lo que se cuenta en el texto en comparación Yang Jun en el siguiente video va como una moto de rápido :D



El siguiente párrafo creo que merece sin duda que se traduzca:
After completing the form, Master Wu remembers being able
to literally pour sweat from his shoes, even in winter! All his illnesses were
purged in this great sweat, and Wu Do-Nan became rejuvenated.
Después de completar la forma, Master Wu recuerda poder ¡Literalmente hacer sudar como un diluvio el interior de sus zapatos, incluso durante el invierno! Todas sus enfermedades se fueron purgando en este gran sudor, y Wu Do Nan rejuveneció.
Alguien puede pensar que dijo eso en la entrevista porque ya “chocheaba” -> ¡pues vale! para que hacerle caso, no se vayan a romper determinados esquemas, y el taijiquan tradicional resulte que también fuera curativo y medicinal y NO SOLO un arte de combate para matar enemigos y que hoy en día unos “mindunguis” quieren utilizar para otras cosas… aunque sea usando SOLO parte del sistema de entrenamiento -> ¿panda chalados? ¡Mira que hacer solo formas y coreografías inútiles! :lol:
After accomplishing the form, Wu Do-Nan learned push hands. First, he learned the single-hand fixed-stance push-hands using the four directions: Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, and Push. Later, he learned two-handed push hands. The players would lower their centers of gravity until they looked like two snakes slithering on the ground.
Entrenaba tuishou bien variado hasta el tipo IV -> disculpas por mi nomenclatura chapucera ¿alguien conoce una denominación de cada uno de los distintos tipos de tuishou?
El tipo IV es o sería el que se realiza en PuBu cambiando el peso de una pierna a otra sin elevación considerable del centro de gravedad
Imagen


Next, Wu Do-Nan learned Da Lu for the four corners: Split, Elbow, Shoulder Strike, and Pull Down. The teacher would stand in the center and pull down the student, forcing the student to run to the next corner to maintain his balance. The teacher would balance the student's energy with his own, and would release the students hands if his energy was too hard, causing him to fly away. Only when the teacher felt the student had achieved a natural soft movement, like a wind through the trees or like clouds across the sky, was the student allowed to proceed to the next step, Relaxed Kung.
El DaLu es el tuishou tipo V en el que se realiza entrenamiento de adherirse y seguir pero con desplazamientos, lo que puede dar lugar a muchas variaciones, en función del patrón de desplazamiento y de movimiento de brazos que se realice. El del texto parece que se refiera al que se realiza en estos videos



Los distintos tipos de tuishou que practicaba Wu TuNan podrían ser los del siguiente video




To achieve this relaxation, the student would stand for hours relaxing each part of the body in turn, from the toes to the top of the head. The teacher was very perceptive and could detect relaxation in any part of the body, only allowing the student to pass on to another body part after relaxation had been achieved in the previous part. When the body was totally relaxed, all the joints would seem to be separated.
Este punto de la relajación dentro de la tensión que mantiene la estructura… el estar parado durante horas relajando las distintas partes del cuerpo etc. Creo entender que se refiere a una práctica de ZhangZhuan (qigong al fin y al cabo) donde efectivamente en contra de lo que pueda pensar algún despistado, se busca precisamente eso RELAJAR y aflojar todo aquello que está excesivamente tenso, no se trata de un ejercicio de fortalecimiento, sino de eliminar lo excesivamente rígido, ¿para que? -> Wu TuNan lo dice en parte, -> para separar las articulaciones pero ¿para que? -> desde el punto de vista del qigong está bien claro, pero seguro que también existen utilidades biomecánicas que facilitan el movimiento perseguido
Application of each posture was the next step in training. The student learned how to put power into each posture, beginning with the basic eight postures (Ward Off, Roll Back., Press, Push, Split, Elbow, Shoulder- Strike, Pull Down), and later with each posture of the solo form.
En el curriculum de entrenamiento hasta este punto no han aparecido las aplicaciones marciales y el darle aspecto marcial a las formas, sin duda en su entrenamiento tradicional le exigían haber culminado con éxito los peldaños anteriores antes de enseñarle la parte puramente marcial, desde luego nada que ver, como comentaba el entrevistador, con un cursillo rápido
Chan Ssu Chin was then developed, enabling the whole body to move as a unit and bringing the Chin to the fingers. The Chi Kung was practiced to accumulate Chi in the Tan Tien, and the Chi was then pushed to the hands. Finally, Chi was circulated to every part of the body.
Aqui engloba al chan si jin junto al chikung o qigong (¿alguien duda todavía de que el taijiquan incorpora qigong implícito?) y qi hacia el dantien y circulando por todas las partes de cuerpo ¡qigong a tope! como parte de SU entrenamiento
After 8 years Wu Do-Nan had completed this course of study, and Master Wu Chien-Chyan decided he had delivered all his knowledge and that Wu Do-Nan should study with Yang Chao- Hsiung (or Yang Shaohou), the son of Yang Chian.

Luego a seguir progresando con la familia Yang


Para terminar con los comentarios tostonazos un video de Sim pooh ho discípulo de wu tunan que realiza la forma rápida Yong Jia




Saludos :D

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Kensei
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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por Kensei » 01 Feb 2009 20:58

daniquan escribió:Incluso ha habido precedentes en las primeras generaciones de los Yang de intentos de suicidio.
...y despues dicen que el Tai Chi Chuan es bueno para la salud :silly: :silly: :silly:



Saludos.

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Javi M.
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Re: Entrenamiento de Wu Tu Nan

Mensaje por Javi M. » 02 Feb 2009 10:39

Alguien puede pensar que dijo eso en la entrevista porque ya “chocheaba” -> ¡pues vale! para que hacerle caso, no se vayan a romper determinados esquemas, y el taijiquan tradicional resulte que también fuera curativo y medicinal y NO SOLO un arte de combate para matar enemigos y que hoy en día unos “mindunguis” quieren utilizar para otras cosas… aunque sea usando SOLO parte del sistema de entrenamiento -> ¿panda chalados? ¡Mira que hacer solo formas y coreografías inútiles! :lol:
Contando que sea verdad lo que cuenta (que lo dudo mucho) hacía la forma de 268 movimientos parando en cada movimiento para hacer 6 respiraciones profundas, calculando 30 segundos de media por respiración (se puede hacer en más tiempo, pero bueno) estaba 3 minutos en cada postura, 804 minutos para hacer la forma, o lo que es lo mismo 13,4 Horas !! :o Si estás 13 horas respirando de esa manera no me extraña que se purgara.... Eso no es taijiquan, es qigong.
el estar parado durante horas relajando las distintas partes del cuerpo etc. Creo entender que se refiere a una práctica de ZhangZhuan (qigong al fin y al cabo) donde efectivamente en contra de lo que pueda pensar algún despistado, se busca precisamente eso RELAJAR y aflojar todo aquello que está excesivamente tenso, no se trata de un ejercicio de fortalecimiento, sino de eliminar lo excesivamente rígido, ¿para que?
Para aprender a relajar, es fundamental no estar tenso en la practica del taijiquan marcial, con fines y objetivos marciales.
Aqui engloba al chan si jin junto al chikung o qigong (¿alguien duda todavía de que el taijiquan incorpora qigong implícito?) y qi hacia el dantien y circulando por todas las partes de cuerpo ¡qigong a tope! como parte de SU entrenamiento
Yo si lo dudo. Que el lo hiciera así no implica que sea necesario hacerlo así.

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