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creatina pa definir...

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creatina pa definir...

Notapor vin diesel » 25 Abr 2006 17:46

mi pregunta es sobre la creatina:
se puede marcar el musculo tomando creatina o los abdomminales por ejemplo tomando creatina 5gr diarios y cuidando un poco lo q se come se podrian llegar amarcar los abdominales o la creatina tmbien te ace crecer la barrigota jajaja,
saludos a todos
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Notapor Victor-21 » 25 Abr 2006 18:49

La creatina para que se absorba correctamente tiene que haber mucho sodio en la dieta y esto hace que se retengan bastantes liquidos por lo que no es normal que haya definicion con el consumo de creatina.

Saludos.
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Notapor Arkaitz » 25 Abr 2006 19:01

mucho sodio en la dieta victor??nunca había oido nada similar, solo que debía haber presencia de carbos de IG alto, cosa que no acabo de compartir plenamente, ya que no me parece mas que otra estrategia comercial de las empresas de los voluminizadores. Presencia de carbos sí, pero no necesariamente de IG alto.

Lo del sodio pues ni idea, pero muchos competidores la toman incluso en definición para paliar en cierta medida las restricciones calóricas.
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Notapor stress » 25 Abr 2006 19:07

A mi, la verdad, tambien me ha descolocado un poco lo del sodio, pero esto que dices Arkaitz
ya que no me parece mas que otra estrategia comercial de las empresas de los voluminizadores. Presencia de carbos sí, pero no necesariamente de IG alto.

Se recomienda que sean de IG alto, para provocar una mayor secrecion de insulina y asi aprovechar esta para transportar la creatina a la celula muscular, acompañada de abundante liquido.
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Notapor Victor-21 » 25 Abr 2006 19:15

Para muestra un boton:

10.1. Creatine
There is so much research showing the benefits of using the stuff it is almost as valuable as protein as far as supplements go.
It enhances the energy "state" of the cell, it enhances glycogen storage, it enhances protein synthesis, it prevents protein catabolism, it stabilizes the muscle cell membrane (allowing higher faster recovery) and enhances cell volume (hydration state), it increases the number of myonuclei donated by satellite cells when fusing with myofibers - thus increasing the muscle's growth potential (refer to Basics of HST thread).
Why wouldn't anybody use it? There is now research looking at 5 years of chronic use indicating it is safe.
It is true that the creatine transporter down regulates itself, but not to the point that no creatine is taken up. If you use 0.03 grams per kilogram (3-5 grams) per day, you will always be loaded and reap the benefits that creatine provides.
Please keep in mind that creatine was originally marketed to increase your strength dramatically and put 7-10 pounds on you over night (Feels like Deca! Ya, sure it does Bill). This simply isn't going to happen for most people.
Creatine use will however do a lot to optimize your body's ability to adapt to training. That's what a person should use it for. And, it does produce measurable results. Measurable in the lab and in the real world. You just have to be patient, and know what your looking for.
Creatine is taken up into cells by the creatine transporter. It is a sodium (Na+) dependant transporter. It is estimated that 2Na+ are transported with each Cr molecule.
The transporter is saturable. Meaning, it can only go so fast no matter how much creatine is present around the cell.
The creatine transporter is NOT directly affected by glucose, insulin, or caffeine. However, when insulin reaches very high levels, it has been shown to increase the amount of creatine that is taken up into cells. There is no evidence that it increases the total amount that the cell can hold.
Caffeine does not inhibit the uptake of creatine into cells.
There is no evidence that "low blood sugar"/hypoglycemia will be affected by creatine supplementation.
1) Creatine uptake into muscle tissue is limited by the activity of the creatine transporter.
2) The creatine transporter is "down-regulated" as the level of creatine inside the muscle cell increases.
3) Creatine only has an effect on muscle cell physiology once it is already inside the cell. Creatine in the blood does nothing for performance...it must be inside the cell.
4) If you load creatine during 5 days (20gm/day), the amount of creatine excreted in the urine goes up DRAMATICALLY by the 3rd day because the muscle cells lose the ability to take in creatine because their transporters are being down regulated.
5) Creatine uptake appears to be either sodium dependant, or highly regulated by sodium transport. Insulin (from carbs) increases sodium uptake into cells, this is why carbs have been shown to increase creatine uptake.
6) Exercise increases creatine uptake. If you take some creatine and sit on a stationary bike and only peddle with one leg, the leg you peddle with will take up more creatine than the leg that is not peddling. (Hint: take you creatine pre-workout)
7) Different forms of creatine do not affect creatine uptake. This is because creatine uptake is limited by the creatine itself, not by its form at the time of ingestion. Once the muscle cell is filled up, it won't take any more. Don't let anybody charge you for any special forms of creatine. Monohydrate works as good as any.
Creatine supplementation will result in approximately a 20% increase in phosphocreatine at best.
9) Some people will have a greater response to creatine if their meat intake was low before. Vegetarians respond beautifully to the stuff.
Once creatine stores are full in muscle tissue, it doesn't matter whether you take 5 grams or 10 grams, the muscle won't take in any more because it down regulates the creatine transporters until no more creatine can be taken in. Insulin or no insulin, if there are no transporters, no
creatine is being taken up into muscle tissue. It is simply being broken down into creatinine and peed out.
Its hard to say what is optimal. All I can say, is that if you "load" you fill up muscles faster than if you don't. However, in the end, you will still end up with as much creatine in muscle if you don't load, but it will take anywhere from 3-4 weeks to do so. Is faster better? Don't know.
We also know that if creatine is floating around during exercise, it will be taken up much better than when you take it at rest.
We also know that insulin, because of its effects on sodium retention, also "facilitates" creatine entry into cells.
So, putting it all together, whether you load or not, make sure to take creatine before exercise. And, it might further help to take it with something that will increase insulin levels, like a preworkout MRP.
There have been no studies to answer the question about creatine cycling. When considering the effects of creatine, I would guess that cycling would not be particularly beneficial, compared to just taking it all the time. Just my opinion though.
And, there is yet any research to clearly define the time frame for cycling creatine.
A person is still justified asking whether creatine really needs to be cycled or not. However, I stumbled across a study the other day that measured intramuscular levels of creatine after loading. They found that levels were slightly higher for the first weeks or so after loading, but then slowly began to decline. So, if there is a particular event where you want as much creatine as possible in the muscle, you may want to go off for 30 days, and then load the week leading up to the event.
For bodybuilding...we just don't know if there is any real benefit to either rapid loading or cycling it.
I always take my creatine before training and have never had any cramping or even an upset stomach from it.
The strength increases seen with creatine supplementation are more a result of fatigue resistance, rather than an increase in neural drive.
The energy requirements of short duration, high intensity exercise are met primarily through the recycling of ATP and phosphocreatine (PC). Despite the relative importance of this system to performance, relatively little definitive research has been done to elucidate whether this system undergoes significant adaptation. The research which exists suggests that phosphagen and related enzyme adaptations are affected specifically by the type, duration and structure of resistance training.
Your muscles/body loses creatine everyday at a rate of about 0.03 grams/kg bodyweight/day. So the creatine that is stored in your muscles doesn't just stay there, it is slowly lost at pretty much a constant rate.
Creatine monohydrate supplementation has been shown to increase creatine-phosphate by about 20%. This is significant and affects the creatine phosphate energy shuttle (which is responsible supplying ATP for protein synthesis).
So, creatine probably wont directly increase your one rep max, but it can increase the number of reps you can get with your 10 rep max. Make sense? Add the creatine to your pre-workout protein drink.
"Twitching" is often caused by Ca++ dysregulation in the muscle cell. The sarcoplasmic reticulum is struggling to sequester all the calcium ions floating around. As this occurs, the calcium ions will cause the fibers to twitch. This can sometimes show up after a change in caffeine intake, along with heavy training. Caffeine is a Ca++ channel agonist.
This will not hurt your gains, in fact, I have suspected in the past that this will actually lead to muscle hypertrophy through the activation of calcineurin.
Anyway, you may try using creatine. It helps the muscle fibers relax by making ATP more readily available (when ATP is not available the fibers go into rigor). IF the twitching is driving you crazy, try creatine. If your not quite crazy yet, you can skip the creatine and know that at least the twitching might help those fibers grow. Using the creatine will not "prevent" hypertrophy of course because the real stimulus for hypertrophy occurred during your last workout.
Tachyphylaxis does not really apply to creatine supplementation in a classical sense. Creatine doesn't really "push" any physiological system, like say, ephedrine or caffeine. Creatine and the response to oral intake are reduced by decreasing the number and activity of creatine transporters. But this isn't really how the term tachyphylaxis is generally used.
I don't mean to sound preachy, but...I was told by several people in the industry that unless I did something to my creatine to make it fancy, I would never be able to sell it. They said it needed bells and whistles. I told them, "Why would I make a product that I wouldn't buy myself?" And they would say, "That's different, you know a lot more about this stuff than they do." Well, I didn't do anything fancy to my creatine. I only made sure it was the purest that could be bought and provided the research to support its use, as well as the research to show how best to use it for gains. I didn't fabricate any of the research either. It was done by institutions that have nothing to gain from creatine sales.
I can tell you that creatine from certain German companies is of high quality. However, the Chinese have actually cleaned up their act and have now begun to produce high quality creatine as well. This comes after pressure from large supplement companies for their creatine to meet other companies’ standards of purity.
There is also a US company that sells equally high quality creatine as the Germans. Remember, there is no secret to producing pure creatine. If one company decides to ensure that their raw creatine is pure, it will be just as good as any other company that is producing pure creatine. So, pure is pure, regardless of where it comes from.
Keep in mind that high quality (pure) creatine costs more than cheap impure creatine. So there is always a temptation for companies who don't really know or care "who they are as a company" to just go for the cheap stuff without regard for quality.


Este articulo fue originalmente de Karkian, espero que no le importe que lo haya compartido con vosotros.

Siiii ya lo seeeeeeeeee, ta en ingles!! Yo de aqui saqué algunas conclusiones:

The creatine transporter is NOT directly affected by glucose, insulin


El transporte de creatina no esta directamente afectado por la glucosa o la insulina?

Segun reporta el texto mas adelante:
However, when insulin reaches very high levels, it has been shown to increase the amount of creatine that is taken up into cells. There is no evidence that it increases the total amount that the cell can hold.


Cuando la insulina alcanza niveles altos, esta visto que incrementa la cantidad de creatina que es tomada por las celulas.

No hay evidencia que incremente la cantidad total que las celulas puedan tomar.

Estos dos parrafos son totalmente compatibles. Es decir, la cantidad aumenta con la presencia de insulina. Otra cosa distinta es que se pueda exceder la cantidad que una celula pueda tomar (como en todo! donde no cabe mas...no se puede meter).

Pero si que esta directamente relacionada pues.

4) If you load creatine during 5 days (20gm/day), the amount of creatine excreted in the urine goes up DRAMATICALLY by the 3rd day because the muscle cells lose the ability to take in creatine because their transporters are being down regulated.


No me acuerdo cuantos dias recomendaban los fabricantes hacer el periodo de carga pero segun dice aqui...al tercer dia estas ya tan saturado de creatina que el resto lo estas meando. Es decir, que el periodo de carga.... :roll:

Insulin (from carbs) increases sodium uptake into cells, this is why carbs have been shown to increase creatine uptake.


Luego si tiene un papel basico la insulina.

Este documento por lo que he podido entender despues de leerlo no es un estudio cientifico. Parece ser una opinion personal o un articulo (eso si, con algunas referencias quimicas) sobre la creatina. El autor es el dueño de una compañia distribuidora de creatina o de suplementos que esta en contra de las politicas comerciales de las grandes compañias que se aprovechan de los pocos conocimientos de los consumidores en estos temas.

Segun el, el sodio es el transportador de creatina a la celula aunque admite que la insulina tambien juega su papel en ello.

Tambien comenta que aunque la creatina alemana es de las mas reconocidas...la china se esta poniendo las pilas asi como el resto de laboratorios en el ambito internacional (cosa que veo normal).

Tambien echa por tierra lo de la fase de carga ya que a los tres dias tus celulas estan saturadas (nada nuevo).

Que el ejercicio implementa el consumo de creatina (normal, mayor consumo de atp mayor gasto de creatina).

Yo con lo que me quedaria asi en plan novedoso....al menos para mi ya que no lo sabia...es el tener en cuenta al sodio.

Saludosss (vaya ladrillazoooooo jajaja)
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Notapor Arkaitz » 25 Abr 2006 19:17

yo creo que es preferible mantener la insulina sin altos ni bajos innecesarios y mantenerla constante. La creatina va a llegar a las celulas de todas formas.
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Notapor stress » 25 Abr 2006 19:26

Como bien dices, victor, es una opinion personal y como tal, no se puede creer a pies juntillas, tampoco desechar evidentemente, lo que si viene bien(para los que sabeis ingles :vamp: ) es para recoger ciertas nociones, como la del sodio, e investigar sobre ello, pero no creo que haya que diluir en la creatina una cucharada de sal, hay que tener cuidado pues, con eso.

Yo creo que si es bueno, en segun que ocasiones, una mayor liberacion de insulina, como en este caso, que aunque llenes a la celula, por lo menos te aseguras el haberlo hecho, y no te quedas corto.

El periodo de carga vivtor, no dura mas de 5 dias, realmente es entre 3 y 5, por lo tanto el articulo lo apoyaria, por lo menos en su version de 3 dias.

Saludos y gracias por las traducciones Vic. :wink:
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Notapor Victor-21 » 25 Abr 2006 19:39

stress escribió:Saludos y gracias por las traducciones Vic. :wink:


A karkian por encontrar el articulo y a vosotros por leerlo :wink:
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Notapor stress » 25 Abr 2006 20:15

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Notapor Muscle_addict » 26 Abr 2006 18:37

Hola, claro que la puedes usar, no veo porqué no ibas a poder usarla. El efecto de retención se va tan rápido como viene al dejar de usarla, aunque hace tiempo que deje de creer en este tipo de suplementos si quieres tomarla, poder puedes.
Saludos
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Notapor vin diesel » 26 Abr 2006 20:52

aunque hace tiempo que deje de creer en este tipo de suplementos si quieres tomarla, poder puedes.

q as dejao de creer en los suplementos??ombre cada cuerpo tiene su cosa no?pero la creatina ayuda muxo a aumenntar tus musculos digas lo q digas igual no te a servido de muxo a ti (si la as tomado nose)pero ay suplementos aparte de la creatina q ayudan muxo, aunke tampoko digo q una buena dieta puede ser mejor q cualquier suplemento.
saludos



gracias por ese link strees :wink: muy interesante se lo recomiendo a todo el mundo!
saludos
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Notapor Victor-21 » 26 Abr 2006 20:59

vin diesel escribió:
aunque hace tiempo que deje de creer en este tipo de suplementos si quieres tomarla, poder puedes.

q as dejao de creer en los suplementos??


No. Lee bien, ha dicho que ha dejado de creer en ESTE TIPO de suplementos. Supongo que se refiere a la creatina y tal vez (tan solo el nos sacara de dudas) y no tanto al resto de los que existen en el mercado.

Saludos.

P.D: Este post derechito a mi tercer link :D
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Notapor karkian » 26 Abr 2006 21:27

Ese documento es una opinion personal pero tomando como base evidencia cientifica...
...
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Notapor kinotron » 26 Abr 2006 21:28

para la creatina un par de cucharaditas de azucar con la creatina y 350ml de agua, y ya esta :lol:
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