aspecto algo sectario en algunas artes marciales o dojos

[Hector]

Así rápidamente... creo que el entrenar un AM no deportivo y que lleve en su "mochila" aspectos intelectuales, actitudinales, filosóficos, etc no está reñido con el que sea ameno, divertido o sea rico en cuanto a relaciones personales se refiere, tanto profesor-alumno como alumno-alumno que tampoco son incompatibles con el respeto y una dedicación intensa.
Todo lo que sea coartar las posibilidades de crecimiento y criterio personal a fuerza de "la verdad es lo que digo yo y porque lo digo yo" no me parecen...

[Pewee]

Pues da, que en ese caso eres el tipo de persona que se comenta en este post.

1.- Se deben guardar las formas y modales propios de la actividad que se está realizando.
2.- Cada AAMM posee unas características propias que lo definen y debemos adapatarnos a ellas.

Ahora bien, en ningun caso esto está reñido con tener dos dedos de frente y saber cuando una persona está ejerciendo un abuso de autoridad.Yo tenía un sensei que era muy estricto cuando debia serlo y tocabamos ciertos aspectos de el AAMM k practicabamos y un cachondo en otros momentos del entrenamiento. De hecho siempre se comenta que la principal característica de los grandes maestros es la humildad y la proximidad con el alumno.

[Sake]

Mira, está sacando las cosas de sitio. Aquí nadie está en contra de que se ayude en el dojo, de que se tenga respeto al Sensei(mira, ves, lo escribo con mayúscula), de que se siga la tradición, de que se vaya al dojo a practicar de forma seria y dedicada... etc.
Precisamente, has ido a atacar a la persona equivocada, ya que por razones que no vienen al caso, tuve que vivir varios años en Japón y practiqué aamm, así que seguramente sé mejor que tú lo que es un dojo tradicional y todo lo que representa.
Pero, de lo que se estaba hablando era de similitudes entre sectas y artes marciales, y de haberlas.......las hay.
Y si no, date una vuelta por la geografía española, verás que hay gente que paga 600 euros por un cinturón(y además contentos de la e*******), otros que se pelean por plegar la hakama del sensei(este lo pongo con minúsculas) otros que llevan más parches en el keikogi que Fernando Alonso en su mono de conducción, otros que han sido agredidos por su maestro y siguen yendo al dojo, casos de abusos sexuales, joder! si en este mismo foro se ha retado gente del mismo estilo por la pureza de su arte y por demostrar que su maestro era el mejor!!!! Y todo lo que acabo de escribir ha sido alentado, urdido, planeado, preparado por un "maestro" y los pobres pardillos cayendo uno a uno sin remisión. Yo a eso le llamo comportamiento sectario, a la perdida del sentido crítico le llamo consecuencia de un comportamiento sectario y a la aceptación de lo descrito anteriormente le llamo caer en las garras de una secta. Tu no?

[Pulga]

El respeto, el amor, la entrega, la pasion, la dedicación, el compromiso, el cariño, la devoción y todo un sin fin de virtudes que nos añudan en el aprendizaje y en nuestro camino marcial, han de ser entrgados libremente, NO SE PUEDE EXIGIR. Del mismo modo un maestro, al igual que debería hacer un padre, debe enseñar buscando la autonomía y máxima capacidad de desicion y/o elección de sus alumnos, creo que eso se logra desarrollando o permitiendo que se desarrolle su personalidad libre de presiones del tipo que provocan los argumentos-falacia "ad autoritatis".

Tenemos que tener en cuenta que las AAMM estan integradas en sociedades y la nuestra valora como bien supremo el libre pensamiento y la libertad personal.

Sinceramente creo que la gente que va mas alla del respeto debido a una figura y exige lo que se debe de dar libremente "por que si no, no lo estas haciendo bien" se estan escediendo en su cometido como maestros y poniendo en evidencia sus inseguridades personales y una lamentable opinion sobre todas las demás personas que comparten sociedad con él, denostan a sus alumnos y por si fuera poco le hacen un flaco favor al estilo que practican.

Saludos y espero que esten pasando un buen verano

Pulga

[Mandril]

Tenemos que tener en cuenta que las AAMM estan integradas en sociedades y la nuestra valora como bien supremo el libre pensamiento y la libertad personal.


Eso mismo pienso yo, la libertad de elegir y criticar debe seguir intacta. Además vivimos en una época en la que las oportunidades para desarollar tu propia forma de pensar son infinitas: hay educación para todo el mundo, libros, internet etc... Cada individuo es libre de pensar como quiera y si algo bueno tiene nuestra sociedad occidental es su libertad de expresión y opinión, y eso debe aplicarse en todas partes aunque diga habiendo gente cazurra que se deje engañar. Desgraciadamente, todavía hay gente que cree que esta en posesión de alguna verdad definitiva y actua en base a eso; pero bueno, ya somos mayorcitos y la actitud crítica debe ser constante, sobre todo en esta sociedad donde te quieren vender la moto constatemente, y algunas escuelas de AAMM son un ejemplo perfecto de esto, vendiendote una "filosofía de vida" bastante de postín...

[iñaki]

No hay problema, no tienes que compartir mi visión

Me tachas de elitista, yo más bien me considero purista y consecuente. Pero que mas da?

1 saludo Huanta

With all due respect ...

Porqué dices elitista cuando parece que quieres decir minoritario...cerrado....Sólo para iniciados....

No todo lo que es para "iniciados" es elitista...

Por cierto qué es "puro" "impuro" "tradicional""moderno", sincrético" etc....

Suena a cierto fundamentalismo de reminiscencias preocupantes...

Por cierto muchos instructores recogen lo peor de muchas tradiciones el concepto jerárquico y opresor de la sociedades del Antiguo Regimen y su sistema estamental y de castas, el entrenamiento homogeneizante de los entrenamientos militaristas de estilos japoneses y coreanos masivos, en filas etc...y se interpreta como tradición.....Y la humillación sufrimiento etc....

Draeger y otros ya critican a estos falsos gurus. Par muestra lo siguiente

You know you're in a cult when:

--Your teacher treats you like scum and expects you to adulate and adore him. Then, he raises you up and makes you feel like the group members are the only ones privy to superduper secret knowledge that will make them more powerful than the Terminator. This is a pattern that makes susceptible people feel that they need to be attached to the cult in order to feel good about themselves, and so they will willingly take mental and physical abuse for the crumbs of selfworth that are thrown their way. But there's a difference between strictness and abuse. Once the line is crossed, leave the school.

--Your teacher and group begins to impose their will upon the rest of your life. Like how I was told of one group that harassed a student because he quit training. They began to stalk him and his family, always trying to talk to him about coming back to train (and pay large sums of money for tuition).

--The teacher and the top students make claims that cannot be substantiated in any accepted martial arts resource. And when I say resource, I don't mean the latest issue of Killer Karate/Kung-Fu Gay Pride Chili Cook-Off magazine. I mean texts such as the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, or Honcho Bugei Shoden and so on. While there may, indeed, be groups (including all non-Japanese martial arts) not included in these texts, they are a good place to start one's research, especially for groups who claim ancestry to hundreds-of-years-old lineages. Get real suspicious when the Big Kahuna says things like, "Oh, nobody in Japan (or China, Korea, etc.) knows much about us because we were a secret society."

Let me tell you, if the group was so secret and special in Japan that nobody heard about 'em, what makes you think that the Japanese members, who are often known for their xenophobic behavior, would go off and teach it to a bunch of stinky cheese-smelling foreigners?

--Your certificates and papers are marked with obscure and mystical-looking Japanese and/or Chinese characters. When you show it to someone who can read Japanese, they start laughing so hard that snot comes out of their noses.

I've seen certificates signed by so-called American "soke" that are truly bizarre. One certificate was stamped with a seal that had the characters: "tree-killing stamp of registration." Another certificate, supposedly for a jujutsu school, read something like, "school of the world-peace restaurant." And that doesn't even account for the one that took first prize: a certificate made with a rusty ball-point pen and cut-out letters from magazines. I almost coughed up my spring rolls when Hugh Davey of the Shudokan Martial Arts Association, who researches such claims, showed me that one.

--As soon as you ask questions about the teacher's origins and instructors, you get a "I don't have to tell you because you're an idiot" behavior. Sure, there's obnoxious snooping, but there's also reasonable and expected questioning that must arise if you visit a dojo. One correspondent sent me a copy of a letter he received after he inquired about a great master's credentials. "I don't have to tell you, and besides, everyone knows I'm a master, so if you keep snooping, I will not talk to you," was the "master's" basic reply. This super-duper master also mentioned that he had his picture taken with martial arts movie stars and full-contact fighters, which of course validates all his claims. Uh huh.

Last I heard these movie stars weren't exactly known for their vast intelligence or historical authority. Would you trust your child to a day-care teacher who refuses to tell you where he received his certification, and then shows you pictures of him standing next to Tom Cruise? Posing next to a movie star at the local bar and grill has no relationship to whether or not they're certified as teachers now, does it? So why would you accept that reasoning from a martial arts teacher?

--When you take a step back, does the teacher's actions exhibit a kind of paranoia and pattern of obfuscation? Does your teacher have a bodyguard to protect him "from the evil people who question my authority"? That's paranoia, my friend. Unless, of course, he really does have enemies who hate him so bad they would take him out in broad daylight. Then you'd better think twice if you want to be caught around this guy when bullets start flying. Does your teacher's stories about the origins of his style change whenever you present him with the facts? That's like the impulsive liar in the famous Saturday Night Live television skit. Martin Short used to play a liar who, when he was caught with an obvious lie, would sweat profusely, smile, and then make up another lie to obscure and obfuscate the original lie.

--If you know enough about martial arts techniques, observe the class. Does the school's forms resemble nothing less than poor karate basics? I once observed a so-called ninja group going through their kata. What I saw wasn't anything that resembled any koryu (ancient martial arts) art. Rather, it was a poor rendition of Okinawan karate's Naihanchin kata. In another case, I was sent a video copy of a demonstration given by a kenjutsu group. The demo was so bad, I was laughing (yes, until snot came out of my nose) all the way. The kata were a hodge-podge mess of everything but the kitchen sink thrown in, with mixtures of karate breathing exercises, Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu, Katori Shinto-ryu, Onoha Itto-ryu, Daito-ryu, and so on, all probably copied from videotapes and books, and then thrown into a blender to create an instant "ancient" martial art. And the sad part of it was, I think all the students really believed that they were doing an authentic martial art, and not something cooked up overnight by some egocentric bozo.

--As I've noted, cultish behavior begins with the best of intentions. Even some orthodox aikido and karate groups, while they may not exhibit full-blown cult behavior, are guilty of at least abusive teacher-student relationships that could grow into cultish behavior. I was informed once of a rather notable aikido sensei who would hurt his deshi so needlessly and badly that they all suffered from bruises, sprains, and black-and-blue sores. They accepted physical and verbal abuse as part of their "training." When the teacher started sleeping with a female student upstairs of the dojo (he was married, in spite of this), and other students began to excuse his behavior, that's when my friend decided to leave.

The worst abuses, however, belong to various so-called ninjutsu and koryu groups, mainly because not much information exists in English to verify many of their claims. Suffice it to say, I find it hard to believe that the United States can have more ninja masters than all of Japan. I'd also be very suspicious of a lot of koryu groups' claims. Too many of them have crawled out of the woodwork by combining poor aikido with some swashbuckling swordsmanship and a few bits and pieces of authenticity strewn here and there.

So are you in a cult? Chances are, you probably aren't. Most martial arts groups, by and large, are legitimate organizations, in spite of the differences in which they conduct their business and interpersonal relationships. But if you are, don't kid yourself. Sooner or later, you might be asked to join that big O'sensei that is trailing another comet. By then, it may be too late for you to get out with your life.

[J.M.POLEY]

Creo que esta podría ser una de las muchas definiciones.

Dojo sectario:
Lugar en el que "se practican" artes marciales "hipnotizando" al estudiante de manera que solo vea por los ojos de su "profesor", eliminando su personalidad y la posibilidad de descubrir que existe un mundo mas allá de la puerta del "dojo".

Saludos