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Shiro Saigo escribió:Pero incluso con un arma de metal que no corte, cambia todo, podrás tirar a las piernas, estrangular con ella, pegar con el pomo, o tirársela a la cara al otro, pero mientras no corte y no le partas en dos al otro eso no es combatir.
En TSYR el entrenamiento con armas de metal sin filo en un ámbito de sparring no es muy común (principalmente por motivos de seguridad), como ya ha dicho Balor anteriormente el trabajo de sparring se realiza con fukuro shinai. Tenemos que partir de la idea de que lo que seas capaz de aplicar con un fukuro shinai podrás hacerlo también con una arma real. Por otro lado, sí es habitual en niveles superiores el uso de armas con o sin filo en todo el trabajo de ken no ken o de desarme.Jaime G escribió:Es un paso más, se podría saltar al metal desde ahí
Teniendo ese tipo de sparring en ThSYR, verías necesario el de kendo?
Si se hubiese perdido inadvertidamente algún conocimiento esencial durante la transmisión del arte, hoy este podría ser inefectivo y no os darías cuenta. Y lo que es peor: como estudio histórico - antropológico, o preservación de tradiciones, estaría viciado.Shiro_Amakusa escribió: mi respuesta siempre es la misma, en este dojo estudiamos koryu como un estudio histórico y antropológico, nuestro deber es pasar los conocimientos alterándolos lo mínimo
Al menos hablando en mi caso (que supongo que más de uno pensará igual), el sparring no es una búsqueda de la ""realidad"" (como si no hubiese realidades a patadas totalmente opuestas e igualmente válidas.....) ni siquiera con la "efectividad" como tal, que total, es una mera palabreja muy relativa. Al hablar de sparring es el modo experimental donde uno ve si es personalmente capaz, repito: personalmente, de realizar según que tácticas y estrategias en base a una teoría. Y que le den a la supuesta realidad.Shiro_Amakusa escribió:Pero es que eralmente detesto esa palabra porque la gente hala de sparrings y demas para buscar efectividad y el asunto es bastante sencillo, siempre y cuando no nos estemos jugando la vida contra un tipo que realmente viene a matarnos y delante de un arma con filo y en una época sin penicilina , etc,.... es tontería decir o saber cual es la realidad
Muchas de esas escuelas, especialmente durante el prolongado período de paz y control social establecido durante el shogunato Tokugawa, derivaron hacia prácticas mas orientadas al desarrollo personal, al postureo de burócratas y cortesanos y, en definitiva, al denominado kaho kenpo (esgrima floreada) en la que la eficiencia combativa es mas que dudosa.Flintstone escribió:El koryu bujutsu no era el arte de matar eficaz y eficientemente? ...
+1 DCS.DCS escribió:Flintstone escribió:
El koryu bujutsu no era el arte de matar eficaz y eficientemente? ...
Muchas de esas escuelas, especialmente durante el prolongado período de paz y control social establecido durante el shogunato Tokugawa, derivaron hacia prácticas mas orientadas al desarrollo personal, al postureo de burócratas y cortesanos y, en definitiva, al denominado kaho kenpo (esgrima floreada) en la que la eficiencia combativa es mas que dudosa.
En este sentido sugiero para mayor profundización:
-Green & Svinth. Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation, Vol 2, ABC-CLIO 2010, p. 599.
-G. Cameron Hurst. Armed Martial Arts of Japan, Yale Univ. Press 1988, p. 73 y ss.
-Anshin, Anatoliy. The Intangible Warrior Culture of Japan: Bodily Practices, Mental Attitudes, and Values of the Two-sworded men from the Fifteenth to the Twenty-first Centuries, Humanities & Social Sciences, Australian Defence Force Academy, UNSW. pp 85 y ss.
- Karl Friday. practicamente todo
Y si, cada escuela es un mundo. Por eso creo que es conveniente antes de plantearse si una escuela determinada contiene y transmite métodos para filetear, arrestar, fostiar, etc., preguntarse si alguna vez lo hizo o si los perdió en algún determinado momento.
. La única manera de mantenerlos firmes era a golpe de mosquetón, no de sable 
. Y de éstas, las que queráis.
. (Por cierto, la bibiografía que adjuntas, buenísima . Me permito adjuntar la obra de Ellis Amdur, en la linea de Friday)Para que luego digan que los catalanes son agarrados.tengu escribió:+1 DCS.
Muy recomendables.No es por hacer spam ni publicidad descarada, pero precisamente de esto hablo en mis 3 libros
Matsuoka Katsunosuke, Ryuso
Founder of Shindo Yoshin-ryu
Matsuoka Katsunosuke was one of the most accomplished samurai of the late Tokugawa era. Holding teaching licenses in Hozoin-ryu sojutsu from Komazawa Yoshitsugu, Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu from Sakakibara Kenkichi, Yoshin Ko-ryu from Totsuka Hikosuke, and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu from Iso Matemaeon, Matsuoka also briefly studied Hokushin Itto-ryu kenjutsu with its founder, Chiba Shusaku.
Katsunosuke was born in Edo-Hantei, the Edo headquarters of the Kuroda clan in Kasumigaseki on the 26th of December, 1836. Katsunosuke opened his first dojo in 1858 in the Asakusa district of Edo where he taught Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu. In 1860, he was required to leave the running of this dojo to a subordinate, as he was appointed to teach kenjutsu and sojutsu by the Bakufu Kobusho (the government military training academy) as part of his duties to the Kuroda clan. When his kenjutsu teacher, Sakakibara Kenkichi, was hired to personally protect Shogun Tokugawa Iemochi, Matsuoka was ordered by the Kuroda Clan to temporarily ascend to the position of Jikishinkage-ryu Hombu-cho.
After the return of headmaster Sakakibara Kenkichi, Katsunosuke resumed teaching at his Tenjin Shinyo-ryu dojo in Edo. In 1862, Katsunosuke married a woman from Ueno village, north of Edo, and relocated there.
While continuing his training, Katsunosuke became convinced that the contemporary jujutsu systems of the late Edo period had lost much of their military usefulness, evolving into systems driven more by individual challenge matches than effective military engagement. He decided he would combine his knowledge of kenjutsu and jujutsu by formulating a new system of his own creation called Shindo Yoshin-ryu (新道揚心流), meaning "new willow spirit school."
Katsunosuke wanted the new system to embrace the curriculum of a sogo bujutsu or integrated martial system--a study more militarily applicable. However, before the Shindo Yoshin-ryu curriculum was fully codified, political turmoil again forced Katsunosuke to leave his training to defend the Tokugawa Shogunate.
In 1866, Katsunosuke was ordered by the Kuroda clan to join the Bakufu Kobusho in forcefully quelling an uprising in Hitaka and Shimofusa. In 1867, as part of the "Seieitai," Matsuoka functioned as a personal guard to Tokugawa Yoshinobu, where he witnessed the formal relinquishment of power by the Tokugawa Shogunate and the ascension to power of the Emperor Meiji (the "Taisai Hokon").
In 1868, Tokugawa Yoshinobu returned to Edo and the Bakufu attempted to regain political control of the government. At the battle of Toba-Fushimi, Katsunosuke was shot in the back by forces loyal to the emperor. Although wounded, Katsunosuke managed to escape and returned to Ueno village. Since Tokugawa loyalists were viewed with much suspicion by the newly formed Imperial Government, Katsunosuke decided he would obscure his identity by adopting the name of his wife's family, Ishijima. When he was fully recovered from his wounds, Katsunosuke decided to build a dojo in Ueno. At the new Ueno village dojo, Katsunosuke continued the development of Shindo Yoshin-ryu.
Like most samurai of the early Meiji era, Katsunosuke found himself impoverished with the loss of social status and regular income. So, in 1875, Katsunosuke followed his father's path into medicine, opening a bonesetting and medical clinic adjoining the dojo. This vocation provided him with financial stability while he continued his dedication to martial arts.
Around this time Katsunosuke chose to alter the spelling of Shindo Yoshin-ryu to reflect "divine willow spirit tradition" (神道揚心流) in contrast to "new willow spirit tradition" (新道揚心流).
In 1884, Katsunosuke received official permission to run a medical clinic in Ueno and in 1887 received official amnesty from the imperial government. Katsunosuke then resumed publicly using the family name of Matsuoka and named his dojo the Matsuoka Shindokan.
Shindokan Dojo
In subsequent years the Matsuoka Shindokan dojo gained the reputation of being one of the finest dojos in Japan, with students listed in the school's register numbering in the thousands. Katsunosuke was visited by many famous budoka of the era seeking training. Katsunosuke remained undefeated in numerous challenge matches during this period, bolstering his reputation throughout Japan.
By the 1890s, an aging Katsunosuke was without a family member extensively trained in Shindo Yoshin-ryu to carry the tradition forward. It became obvious that the future of Shindo Yoshin-ryu would need to be guaranteed by temporarily appointing a headmaster outside of the Matsuoka family. Katsunosuke had several instructors holding a license of full transmission (menkyo kaiden). One was the headquarters dojo kangicho (general secretary), Inose Motokichi. Another was the Asakusa shibu dojo-cho (branch dojo director), Ohbata Shigeta. Inose Motokichi, the senior of these two men, was chosen to be the second generation headmaster. With this appointment came the understanding that Katsunosuke's young grandson, Tatsuo, would take over as 3rd generation headmaster when he reached adulthood.
With the promotion of Inose Motokichi to 2nd generation headmaster, Asakusa shibu dojo-cho, Ohbata Shigeta requested and was authorized to separate from the mainline headquarters and oversee his own independent Shindo Yoshin-ryu branch. In time this branch of Shindo Yoshin-ryu became the Ohbata-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu.
Ryuso Matsuoka Katsunosuke died in 1898, a member of the the last generation of true samurai and one of the last personal body guards of the Tokugawa Shogun.
Creo que no leemos bien, porque lo único que no he hecho para meterme en otros graneros es generalizar, siempre he dicho "en mi opinión" y siempre he dicho "asi se hace en mi casa".DCS escribió:Shiro,
Creo que tienes un concepto de lo que es el koryu bujutsu bastante equivocado y que estás haciendo generalizaciones sobre multitud de escuelas, modos de entrenar, métodos de transmisión y finalidades de la práctica que históricamente no se sostienen.
