Bruce Lee y el Wushu

[Namor]

el encargado de enseñar no fue inosanto fue jim y. lee (aunque se apelliden = no es primo ni nada de bruce lee) y si yo fuese instructpor de todas esas cosas como inosanto m diriais que aprendiz de mucho maestro de poco , que si coleccionista de danes...solo que el es famoso! jajajaja

[jujitsuKO]

que yo sepa hay una legión de boxeadores que compitieron cuando el tema tecnológico no estaba tan avanzado y aún hoy se les respeta muchísimo por sus palmarés, etc. y nadie tiene que ir "defendiéndoles" de las nuevas generaciones (sino todo lo contrario, son un referente)...

[Enrique JKD]

el encargado de enseñar no fue inosanto fue jim y. lee

Según tengo entendido, sí que fue Inosanto el encargado de dar las clases en ausencia de Lee.
Aunque Bruce Lee no participó en el UFC ni nada parecido, decir que no luchó nunca tampoco es muy veraz.
Que yo sepa, Ueshiba no tuvo muchas peleas que digamos (sólo recuerdo un incidente con alguien que hacía kendo, y conozco dos versiones contradictorias del hecho), y no por eso deja de ser un gran artista marcial (al menos para mi).
Aquí os dejo un texto, perdón por no traducirlo, en el que se narran tanto las peleas conocidas de Bruce Lee, como la opinión que tenían de él como luchador algunos artistas marciales y boxeadores.
Tener una opinión positiva sobre Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto o el Jeet Kune Do parece ser pecado en este foro. Aún así, aquí os dejo el artículo en cuestión.
Un saludo.
Fight history of Bruce Lee
Martial artist Bruce Lee as a competitor was involved in many fights:
In the tournament consisted of twelve schools the three time champion British boxer Gary Elms was defeated by Lee by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships by using Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches. Hawkings Cheung, his fellow Wing Chun street fighter, witnessed the event. Before facing Elms in the finals, Lee defeated Shen Yuen, Lieh Lo, and Yang Huang, all by way of knock out in the first round.

In Oakland California in 1964 at China Town the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to Bruce's dojo to stop teaching non-chinese. Refusing to be told what to do or to discriminate who is allowed to learn Lee had been challenged to a combat match with their top fighter Wong Jack Man . The formidable Wong Jack Man had mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and Tai Chi Chuan while being a direct student of Grand Master Ma Kin Fung. The arrangement was that if Bruce lost he would have to shut down his school, if he won then Bruce would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else. Wong stated that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theater. However, contrary to this claimed motive is the signed formal letter manifested by Dan Chan with signatures by the martial art community, including Chan and Wong, as a petitioned document by the community does not correspond to the motive of responding to an open challenge. "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me" --Bruce Lee. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20-25 minutes. Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation) and William Chen, a teacher of Tai Chi Chuan. According to Bruce, Linda, and James Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Bruce. "The fight ensued, it was a no holds barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up." --Linda Lee Cadwell. Reportedly, Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch. Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee knocked out Uechi,a Japanese black belt, in 11 seconds in a 1962 Full-Contact match in Seattle. It was refereed by Jesse Glover. The incident took place in Seattle at a YMCA handball court. Taki Kamura says the battle lasted 10 seconds in contrary to Harts statement. Ed Hart states "The karate man arrived in his gi (uniform), complete with black belt, while Bruce showed up in his street clothes and simply took off his shoes. The fight lasted exactly 11 seconds--I know because I was the time keeper---and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him." The fight ended by Bruce knocking Uechi the length of the gymnasium.

Lee knocked-out Pu Chung, a Choy Li Fut fighter, in the roof tops of Hong Kong in a 1958 Full-Contact match. The match was refereed by Sheun-Leung Wong.

In a bout Lee had against a Taekwon do practitioner, martial artist Steve Golden a Kenpo black belt for seven years at the time states "It was frightening to see how easy it was for Bruce. The Tae Kwon Do black belt mentioned that he knew Bruce had good hands, so Bruce said he would only use his feet. They went pretty hard, and the guy really tried to kick Bruce. Every time the guy kicked, Bruce got just barely out of range, and just as the guy’s foot came down, Bruce held his kick up to the guy’s face—a roundhouse kick right up to the guy’s nose or a side kick up to the guy’s temple. This guy was putting everything he had into getting Bruce, and Bruce was barely putting out any effort. If it was for real, it would have lasted until the first kick." --Steve Golden


Richard Bustillo is certified as a law enforcement defensive tactics instructor and certified with the Olympic Training Center as a coach and official with USA Boxing, and a Kru in Muay Thai. Bustillo, who is professed in Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, Karate, and his native Hawaiian Kajukenpo systems, is an inductee into the ‘World Martial Arts Hall of Fame’ and had eventually became a student of Lees and describes the following incident while Lee was present at a training session at I.M.B academy, Torrance, California- “While a few of us were training, a guy asked Bruce if he actually thought he could stop his attack if he were to charge at Bruce with his knife. Well, Bruce told this guy to come at him with the blade, so the guy did. It was so fast when Bruce kicked the knife right out of the guys hand, before he could take more than two steps, that we were all left amazed by it…but, perhaps not as much as the guy who no longer held that knife.”

Lees veteran experiences in real combat dates back long before movies or the U.S. during his initial training as a youth from the numerous gang street fights he was involved with as a member of the Tigers of Junction Street. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocked the fellow out, broke his tooth, broke his arm. The police were involved." --John Little. The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop on 1959 April 29, Wednesday 10pm

1960 Seattle, Lee had back-fisted and busted a mans nose after Lee saw him harassing a Chinese Girl. Lee was taking a walk. This fight was witnessed by JamesDeMile.

James W. DeMile was the "Duke" of the Capitol Hill gang in Seattle and an undefeated heavyweight boxer in the Air Force. DeMile states "I wouldn't have put a dime on anyone to beat Bruce Lee in a real confrontation. Bruce Lee was the best street fighter I ever saw, even to this very day, and not just pound for pound — but against anyone in a real fight." --James DeMile

Dan Inosanto stated, "there's no doubt in my mind that if Bruce Lee had gone into pro boxing, he could easily have ranked in the top three in the lightweight division or junior-welterweight division."

"In a dictionary, you say 'greatest', you say 'Bruce Lee', that´s the way it is. He is second to no one." --Sugar Ray Leonard

Better than 90 percent of the martial artist author Steven Barnes interviewed believe that Bruce Lee was the best fighter they have ever seen.

When I was having dinner with Chuck [Norris] I did ask him: "If you and Bruce would be in a real fight to death, who would win?", and he said without thinking: "Bruce of course. Nobody can beat him".

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing on the backyard to incite battle against Lee in combat. Lee had finished the challenger violently with a kick from feeling infuriated upon the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states, "One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?'. And Bruce was poppin mad. He[Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me'. He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life."

Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter." Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "damned good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.

"This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart." "Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...Then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly." -- Bob Wall

[Perrolobo]

el encargado de enseñar no fue inosanto fue jim y. lee (aunque se apelliden = no es primo ni nada de bruce lee) y si yo fuese instructpor de todas esas cosas como inosanto m diriais que aprendiz de mucho maestro de poco , que si coleccionista de danes...solo que el es famoso! jajajaja

Los encargados de enseñar fueron Taki Kimura, James Lee y Dan Inosanto. Cada uno en un gym diferente de una ciudad diferente.

[Perrolobo]

Yo tengo una excelente opinion de Inosanto. Me merece muchisimo respeto su trabajo en investigacion y su capacidad para seguir aprendiendo. Su calidad tecnica la desconozco.

Tengo buena opinion del jeet kune do, me parece un arte muy interesante.

Pero de Bruce Lee tengo la opinion de que tenia buenas capacidades fisicas, que entrenaba adecuadamente y que tenia inteligencia para investigar. Pero....

Sus investigaciones se basaban en libros. No tengo nada en contra de los libros pero no es ni paracido entrenar boxeo con un buen boxeador que leer cien o mil libros de boxeo. Y asi con todos los estilos que conocia solo por libros.

Sus sistema lo probaba con sus propios alumnos. Todo funciona si lo usas contra alguien mas lento y con menos conocimientos. Prince Nassem tenia un estilo super expectacular que mientras lo uso con gente de nivel inferior deslumbraba, cuando lo enfrento a alguien de su nivel se vieron las muchas carencias que tenia. A Bruce Lee le falto partirse la cara con gente de nivel de otros sistemas. No para demostrar nada sino para comprobar en vivo lo que funciona y lo que no. Y poder seguir avanzando.

Respecto a los desafios de bruce Lee... no le doy demasiada credibilidad a combates de los que hablan solo los "amigos". Sean de Bruce Lee o de perito de los palotes, si un alumno dice que su maestro es el mejor y que el lo vio no hay que hacerle mucho caso. En la epoca de Bruce lee habia camaras. hay muchas grabaciones de sus demostraciones y miles de fotos. Pero de sus peleas todavia no ha salido nada. Si de despues de 30 no ha salido nada sera por que no lo hay...

[Javi M.]

Que yo sepa, Ueshiba no tuvo muchas peleas que digamos (sólo recuerdo un incidente con alguien que hacía kendo, y conozco dos versiones contradictorias del hecho), y no por eso deja de ser un gran artista marcial (al menos para mi).

Pues seguramente alguna más que Bruce Lee, ya que él era famoso por sus habilidades marciales y no por sus peliculas ...

[Loup]

Hola, EnriqueJKD,
Por fin, alguien que, practicando el Jeet Kune Do, puede aportar luz sobre los aspectos menos conocidos de la biografía del Pequeño Dragón:

Lee knocked-out Pu Chung, a Choy Li Fut fighter, in the roof tops of Hong Kong in a 1958 Full-Contact match. The match was refereed by Sheun-Leung Wong.

Lee demostró, en varias de sus películas, movimientos de sistemas de Wushu, como por ejemplo, las rutinas de Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Boxeo de la Mantis del Norte) en Operación dragón (Enter the Dragon, 1973), en la habitación de la mansión del sr. Han, ante la atónita mirada de O´hara (Bob Wall, El furor del dragón, The Way of the Dragon, 1972).



¿Dónde aprendió Lee los estilos de Wushu? ¿Quiénes fueron sus Maestros? ¿Cuántos luchadores de otros estilos de Wushu tuvieron contacto con él?

Salu2,

Loup

[Perrolobo]

Un verdadero mito de la misma epoca.

Velocidad, timming, tecnica, despalzamientos,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zg-xZadHGc

Cada uno tenemos nuestros mitos.

[Loup]

Hola, Perrolobo,
Sí, el mismísimo Pequeño Dragón veneraba al mítico campeón Mohammed Alí. Te recuerdo, no obstante, que Alí entrenó con un amigo (y profundo admirador) de Bruce Lee: John Rhee, padre del Taekwondo estadounidense, quien le otorgó el cinturón negro del arte marcial coreano.



Saludos,

Loup

[Enrique JKD]

Perrolobo:

Respecto a los desafios de bruce Lee... no le doy demasiada credibilidad a combates de los que hablan solo los "amigos".

no intentaba convencer a nadie de nada. Simplemente trataba de aportar algo de información sobre los combates de Bruce Lee. El darle credibilidad o no a los que ahí afirman haber presenciado esos combates es algo personal. Unos lo creerán y otros no. Si la película 300 la hubiesen hecho los persas, los que habrían quedado de sodomitas habrían sido otros, no?
Desde luego, al no ser un competidor de ningún deporte de contacto, Bruce Lee no podría presumir de ningún palmarés.
Javi M.

Pues seguramente alguna más que Bruce Lee, ya que él era famoso por sus habilidades marciales y no por sus peliculas ...

No sé si más o menos. Ya te digo que sólo conozco una anécdota. Quizás tuvo más experiencias de combate. Lo ignoro. No podía ser conocido por sus películas porque no era actor, ni bueno ni malo. Se dedicó exclusivamente a las artes marciales y además muy bien, ya que el aikido, según mi modesta opinión es un gran arte marcial, y su creador uno de los pocos Maestros de la historia. ¿Pero tuvo mucha experiencia en combates, dejando a un lado las demostraciones?
Perrolobo:

[Sus investigaciones se basaban en libros. No tengo nada en contra de los libros pero no es ni paracido entrenar boxeo con un buen boxeador que leer cien o mil libros de boxeo. Y asi con todos los estilos que conocia solo por libros./quote]
No sólo se basaron en los libros:
"I used to wrestle with him for an hour without stopping. I'd do submissions, a neck crank, an armbar, just to show him that it worked. He weighed about 130, and I was about 185 pounds. I leaned on him. And because of his ab muscles and his wind, he never took a deep breath. Never squeaked once." --Gene LeBell

Professor Wally Jay is the grandmaster of the Jujitsu America organization. He holds a 10th dan in Jujutsu and 6th dan in Judo and has been twice inducted in the Black Belt magazine Hall of Fame. Lee and his friend James Yimm Lee spent many hours with Jay learning the Judo and Jujitsu methods he had perfected. The two would have long conversations about theories surrounding the martial arts and grew to be longtime friends."
Creo que no perdió oportunidad de aprender de quien fuese, como por ejemplo de John Rhee.
Loup:
No puedo aclararte mucho el tema. He encontrado esto al respecto:
Lee's familiarity of the Art of War was infinitely diverse from his studious life-time focus; Lee was trained in Tai Chi Tuan in the dominant aspect of the Wu Style (also known as Nga). Lee was also trained in Tam Toi for the twelve sets (also known as Buk Pie). Lee also was trained in the martial art Choy Li Fut. Lee's perspectives were wide and never ending still as it included Western Boxing, of the three swords for fencing (epee, sabre and foil) Bruce was trained in Epee, Judo, Praying Mantis, Hsing-I, and Jujitsu.

"When Bruce arrived in the U.S he had the training in Wu Style Tai Chi, sometimes in Hong Kong called Nga. And he had of course training in western boxing. He had training in fencing from his brother, that's Epee, that goes from toe to head. He had training obviously in Wing Chun. And the other area was the training he had received in Buk Pie, or Tam Toi, he was twelve sets in Tam Toi. And I believe he had traded with a Choy Li Fut man." --Danny Inosanto
Un saludo.

[Loup]

Hola, Enrique JKD,

Loup:
No puedo aclararte mucho el tema. He encontrado esto al respecto:
Lee's familiarity of the Art of War was infinitely diverse from his studious life-time focus; Lee was trained in Tai Chi Tuan in the dominant aspect of the Wu Style (also known as Nga). Lee was also trained in Tam Toi for the twelve sets (also known as Buk Pie). Lee also was trained in the martial art Choy Li Fut. Lee's perspectives were wide and never ending still as it included Western Boxing, of the three swords for fencing (epee, sabre and foil) Bruce was trained in Epee, Judo, Praying Mantis, Hsing-I, and Jujitsu.

"When Bruce arrived in the U.S he had the training in Wu Style Tai Chi, sometimes in Hong Kong called Nga. And he had of course training in western boxing. He had training in fencing from his brother, that's Epee, that goes from toe to head. He had training obviously in Wing Chun. And the other area was the training he had received in Buk Pie, or Tam Toi, he was twelve sets in Tam Toi. And I believe he had traded with a Choy Li Fut man." --Danny Inosanto

Vaya, vaya... pues la información, desconocida en parte por mí, me resulta reveladora.

Gracias,

Loup

[Sifu Neldo]

Lee demostró, en varias de sus películas, movimientos de sistemas de Wushu, como por ejemplo, las rutinas de Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Boxeo de la Mantis del Norte) en Operación dragón (Enter the Dragon, 1973), en la habitación de la mansión del sr. Han, ante la atónita mirada de O´hara (Bob Wall, El furor del dragón, The Way of the Dragon, 1972).

Estimado Loup, si me lo permites aclarar, lo que BL muestra en ese fragmento de video no es Boxeo de la Mantis del Norte, es Tam Toi norteño. Algunas de esas combinaciones de piernas, BL era afecto a mostrarlas en las exhibiciones que hacía en los EE.UU durante torneos y demás en donde le invitaban. Y la razón de ello era que durante esas "muestras" algunas personas presentes le endilgaban no hacer patadas altas porque supuestamente no "podía", por lo cual decidió mostrar Tam Toi Norteño, una manera opuesta de mostrar patadas como las que venía efectuando en Wing Chun.

En referencia a los aportes de EnriqueJKD, estos son muy interesantes y de buena documentación.
Muy claro el concepto de sus mensajes.

Un abrazo amigos.-

[Kurosawa]

Hombre por fin gente positiva que se centra en el tema del post. Nos podremos enterar que Wushu practicó ,independientemente que fuera buen actor o no y si se peleó alguna vez, que me importa un carajo.

[Loup]

Hola, Sifu Neldo:

Estimado Loup, si me lo permites aclarar, lo que BL muestra en ese fragmento de video no es Boxeo de la Mantis del Norte, es Tam Toi norteño. Algunas de esas combinaciones de piernas, BL era afecto a mostrarlas en las exhibiciones que hacía en los EE.UU durante torneos y demás en donde le invitaban. Y la razón de ello era que durante esas "muestras" algunas personas presentes le endilgaban no hacer patadas altas porque supuestamente no "podía", por lo cual decidió mostrar Tam Toi Norteño, una manera opuesta de mostrar patadas como las que venía efectuando en Wing Chun.

Por lo que tengo entendido, Lee no era fanático de las patadas altas al pisar los EE.UU. Pero después de ver exhibiciones de Hidetaka Nishiyama, John Rhee o Mike Anderson -virtuosos de las técnicas de pierna-, asistir a campeonatos de Chuck Norris, Skipper Mullins o Mike Stone -aficionados a lanzar patadas en sus encuentros- e intercambiar impresiones con Mark Dacascos, M.K. Isataka o Ji Jae Han -expertos en las técnicas con las piernas-, decidió entrenar el tren inferior, aprovechando el bagaje técnico del Tan Tuei (Chang Chuan) para mostrarlo en sus películas.

De todas formas, ¿quién le enseñó en Hong Kong las rutinas básicas del Tan Tuei?



Salu2,

Loup

[Namor]

yo m referia que jin y. lee fué el unico que tenia permiso para enseñar después de que bruce cerrase sus gimnasios